First of all, hi, my name is Francisco, I am a brazilian lawyer. I tried to register here as WingChun Lawyer but I couldn´t (apparently the name is already registered!) - if a mod could change my username, I would be grateful.

Ah well, the thread. I did a search here and I found this old post by Panopticon:

"I always thought it might be interesting to run a game where the characters could influence the cosmology ala the dc vertigo title "the invisibles". High power PC's (including magicians) fighting a guerilla war against the lictors."

Which made me think.

I never actually run a Kult game (I intend to!), but I always thought the setting was a bit too depressing for my tastes - and that happened by a huge effort of the writers of the book, since the premises of the game are not itself so bleak, imho!

I mean, when it is all said and done, Kult is quite a hopeful (if not optimistic) game. Sure, there are millions of evil creatures trying to jail you/torture you for all eternity, but when it comes down to it, you are a fallen god, and the jail is indeed coming apart.

I always thought the whole atmosphere the game creators designed was engineered to keep the player characters (if not the players themselves, who always borrow the damn book) scared, confused, and ignorant of that truth. It is supposed to be a horror game, after all: no problem with that.

But I already have Call of Cthulhu if I want a terror driven, hopeless game: the premises of Kult could, again in my opinion, be used more successfully in a more action oriented game, where victory is not impossible to achieve.

I always thought adapting Mage: The Ascension to Kult would be a big mistake. Not the magic itself, of course - those spheres can destroy any well designed scenario, and I like Kult´s magic system well enough - but I was interested in making things at least POSSIBLE for the players. I wanted them to act, not react to the threat of the week.

Then I read Grant Morrison´s The invisibles. I will not resume the entire series here, but it concerns the fight of a bunch of occultists/terrorists/freedom fighters against other dimensional entities (named Archons, curiously) who had already captured humanity´s mind and bodies in the past, and who wanted to invade our dimension personally to establish an iron domain here for eternity.

I think the Invisible College could fit very well within the Kul cosmology, with relatively minor adaptations - IF you want a more hopeful kind of campaign, mind. You can set the optimism for your own campaign as you want, of course, but the Invisibles are essentially an organization which provides support to its members in the fight against opression, and that support is both physical and mystical. That will indeed create a huge crack in any terror centered campaign.

For starters, I suppose the College should have some kind of patron - Malkuth would be too much, I guess, but maybe some dreamlords, or even an awakened human would probably be good enough. It should also have an other dimensional base where its members could train and study in relative security, maybe in the dreamworlds.

Lastly, the College should be able to provide its members material support and, more importantly, knowledge. At its highest levels, the "grandmasters" of the organization could be aware of a lot of the Kult cosmology, including Metropolis, Achyllis, Inferno, etc etc ad nauseam - not that every member of the organization could or should be aware of all of that!

The ultimate goal of the Invisibles would be, of course, to promote the mass awakening if humanity, even if not all of its members are aware of how that should happen, and what would be the consequences. To achieve their own awakening, the Invisibles themselves should do their best to move their mental balance up or down as much as possible (frequently with dire consequences, of course, but no one said awakening was easy or safe...).

Finally, I suppose a campaign centered on the Invisible College should emphasize the influence the jailers hold over the human society as whole, and the efforts of the Invisibles to break that hold in the media, culture, military, etc.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Ideas?

Hi! And be welcome to these forums

I do not agree that Kult is hopeful, at least in that specific sense: is it really "good" or "optimistic" that humanity is composed of fallen gods, or do we just feel better if we build up a metaphor that tells us so and convices us of such "goodness"?

Most of the humans in Elysium are jailed, and this is to a great extent a symbolic prison, a prison which deals with how is reality structured. Their frame of reality is shared with those who belong to their culture, and this is the key to their survival: smaller ?cultures? such like families or groups of friends share more detailed frames of reality, though they are submitted to the dominant culture -which is now brought to our homes through teleportation: like, television channels-. Zero mental balance of course means the prisoner isn't even aware of the imprisonment: s/he's accepted the empty commands of authority as if they came from himself.

OK, so then we have those two approaches when a human gets to the edge of his culture: positive mental balance and negative mental balance.
If you walk the positive path, you get to think we're that sort of fallen gods and that things would be cool if we awoke, so you rush for your illumination. You think you are bringing some sort of spiritual enlightenment, you think about your ?Path? in 'evolutionary' terms, and start to search for your true nature. You even start to dismiss those negative balanced and the sheep as they do not make any valuable effort to evolve: you're right, as well as those who agree with you.
If you get negative, you realize what happened (well, if your mind breakdowns let you): you got out of the consensual reality, you got out of the cultural realm that tied you with the others, and though you may be able to know better others' minds and motivations, you can't but survive knowing you just chose the wrong direction by stepping out of the consensual reality (as much as it sucks!) and that there's no way back.

So, the only exit seems to get enlightened *David Lynch's Eraserhead "in heaven" mantra begins to play*. Wouldn't we at least be a bit suspicious on that? I mean, in the Illusion we're trapped in a consensual reality that sucks, full with ego-driven maniacs, miserably egoistic individuals, and very few seem to be able to risk themselves in order to fix it; never those in the zero mental balance.
I propose you some sort of reversal on the Kult point of view on it: Reality is unbearable for most of us, and after our souls are cleansed in Hell and we're reborn, we lack any structures by which to organize reality, we even lack a sense of Self, all of that has been erased. We notice there's a chaotic reality out there and we do not have a clue on how to handle that (now that probably is against Kult rules, I think you were supposed to have 0 MB when you are born, but I like it more to think that sticking to consensual reality is a result of that primal trauma of facing a chaotic reality outside yourself; in some sense a baby is awakened but cannot react at all to it). So, when we grow up, we all have that tingling trauma deep inside us, we remember, so when reality crumbles down, players either rise above it in a higher mission (positive mental balance) or either crack down to the trauma (negative). In the end, the symbolic realm and consensus reality is what we've built to protect ourselves from the Real. Like, if you're a native from a forgotten tribe and suddenly you find yourself in a huge metropolis, you'll be freaking lost, much like we would in Metropolis: you don't know the rules, you don't have any cognitive references in order to organize reality. A car will probably run on you before you get a chance.

My point is, our symbolic crap, consensual reality and those who are even unknowingly fully submitted to authority, are the result of a natural process. Its a human answer to that chaotic reality we cannot handle, as we are not "aware of our divinity". We lack those resources to realize it and awaken, so we're condemned to the trauma, and build up consensus reality: if it sucks, we can't forget it is also our fault. And we can't even imagine what lies beyond that primal trauma, so, why should we think that "lost divinity" stuff in positive terms? In any sort of terms which come from the consensual reality?

What I mean is, if there is no real exit, "you can never be free", it is because of the very nature of humanity. I don't think in Kult "things should be possible" for the players: those who get out of consensus reality are not oh-so-high enlightened beings, they're not almost-gods, they're not "above" any others: they are just the pariah, the outcasts, of this damned race. In other words, two wrongs do not create one right.

So, I wouldn't say there's an optimistic message in Kult: and I think it is way more frightening than Call of Cthulhu. Anyway, what I appreciate is there's a lot of really interesting insights you can dwell on in Kult, and which can be applied to the real world.


On the Invisibles topic, I've red just like ten episodes on the Invisibles more than a year ago and I don't really remember details, but knowing a bit from Grant Morrison I guess I get the feeling... anyhow I might be wrong, one never knows.

I've got a natural distante for any sort of hierarchical organizations, well, about organizations themselves . A support-only organization would be really nice, but I wouldn't put it much further than that: it is obvious that a cooperating group has more possibilities to "fight for freedom" than lonely individuals due to our cooperative nature, but that can lead many times to a common point of view on how the world should be, with their members convinced on it in a positive-MB fashion. Such an organization would have to treasure its members' individuality as its highest value, sacrificing itself as an entity in any topic that could hinder that, and avoid at all costs any common point of view which would lead to exerting authority.

In that sense, "providing knowledge" is for instance a very strong risk: I guess this knowledge is supposed to lead the members towards enlightenment, but there's probably a lot of approaches to that. As you are deconditioned from consensus reality, other sorts of subtle conditionings can slip in stealthy: Is the "logical answer" to spread revolution? (Are the highest ranks to direct it?) Is it to "go higher" and learn on the Real World and not to care at all, such like awakened seem to do in Kult when they explore the reality outside Elysium before returning?

As soon as there's a common point of view on how the world is or should be, this consensus risks to be enforced through the use of authority. Of course, authority is not just "you must because I say so", the empty command. That emptyness, which is the source of its attraction, is covered up by several masquerades: authority usually relies on a higher goal (you must because its good for our nation/corporation/ideology, so it is good for you!), and in these times it has refined itself so we are led to convince ourselves we decided it instead of the authority: I know you don't want to do visit your grandma, but look inside yourself, think about how much she cares and decide by yourself. I know you don't want to do this mission, but look inside yourself and decide if the revolution is worth it.

Anyway, using such sort of organization like in the Invisibles, would provide a lot of possibilities on the many ways it can be tainted :evil: . Maybe if it was built in the old anarchist way, as small independent groups which members support each other and sometimes have contact with other groups in order to share information or have some neccesary help... then it may work. Maybe the Internet would be an useful contact tool here if it is to be widespread?

Thanks for the welcome!

Now, I read the Kult book (the rulesbook) years ago, and I don´t remember everything, but I think you are wrong on one point: you seem to believe that the whole human divinity issue is a personal thing, that an Awakened human is a pariah, an hermit - an anomaly.

Now, as I remember, that is simply wrong. According to the cosmological premises of Kult, all humans were at one time Awakened, all of us were gods. At a certain point in the past we were the bosses, we had the power. So all humans have a certain background in common, a certain origin to go back to - that may not mean much in the day to day lives of our players, but it adds a great depth to the cosmological significance of awakening.

So it is not a simple question of the loneliness of evolution (a la X Men), it is a matter of mankind going back to its former glory BEFORE starting the real evolution. According to Kult, and at least as far as I remember (I could be wrong, I haven´t read that book in years), all humans have divinity in common, right?

"What I mean is, if there is no real exit, "you can never be free", it is because of the very nature of humanity. I don't think in Kult "things should be possible" for the players: those who get out of consensus reality are not oh-so-high enlightened beings, they're not almost-gods, they're not "above" any others: they are just the pariah, the outcasts, of this damned race. In other words, two wrongs do not create one right."

As I remember, in Kult you CAN be free. Hell, they even set rules for awakening (I know, I know, almost impossible, but not absolutely impossible). They even set rules for the powers and the abilities an awakened human should possess! So there is an exit indeed. And that exit is part of the nature of humanity.

Now, I do not advocate actually playing with an awakened human, that is close to impossible. But the simple fact that an exit actually EXISTS is important, and knowledge of that fact is a powerful weapon, one which could help unite a bunch of otherwise stupid, moronic, Illusion-jailed humans against their jailers, and in search of personal freedom.

So, see, according to the Kult paradigm, we are not a damned race condemned to suffer for eternity in a valley of tears. There is an exit, and the prison bars are showing signs of erosion - oh, how those nepharites will suffer when we get them...

As for your style of play, hey, it is your game. I do understand Kult has amazing potential as a horror game because of the potential for personal horror - human beings ARE important in Kult, unlike in Call of Cthulhu. Damn, we are each issued one Nepharite when we die for our personal Hell! I might as well go and consider that an honor.

What I suggest is a somewhat lighter way of playing. How lighter is up to you, of course, but it is just a suggestion.

By the way, I read the entire Invisibles series, and the Invisible College seems to work mostly on the premises you described - mostly independent cells which work for the freedom of mankind in general and the individual in particular...and who fight the archons and their human and sub human agents.

Welcome to the Last Cycle!

For the user name - XMB 1.9.1 which we currently use, does not allow spaces in the user name. It says that the name is reserved, but that is actually a very bad way of saying that you can't have spaces in the name .

The easiest way to change your name is to register a new account as we are not too fond of editing the database. Sorry about that

-K6

Thanks for the reply Kingsix. Torb already contacted me and explained the problem.

As for the suggestion, any ideas or criticisms whatsoever?

Wlecome WLC

I only wanted to add my five cents from a standpoint of
someone who also read the whole Invisibles series.... If
you would want to describe the group in Kult terms they
are neither awakened (still to weak), but also neither on
any of the two paths presented in Kult rules. They are
rather in between, and could pose as very advanced Kult
PC's, IMO of course.

As for the gameplay being more lighthearted and action
oriented, it's your game, your players and you can modify
it anyway you want, but if you want to be true to the
"official standpoint", organisations such as the Invisible
College would be useless and rather misleading. In the comic
book you had the Bad guys (which although incredibly
powerfull were still that - the bad guys) so if you would want
to include Kult Awakening here there would be basicly two
ways: way one - let's awake and kick their asses, and the
second way let's kick their asses and then we can awaken...
In Kult it isn't as easy as the bad guys are not physical nor
ethereal beings whose ass can be kicked. Those are the
principles and morals that enslave us and each human must
deal with his own consciousness to free himself. So the IC
would probably fight Lictors and others who try to keep us
enslaved... so what? Even then the real wardens would be
hidden in our own instincts. And even if we could overthrow
everyone who tries to block us, we would realise that our
freedom fighters can teach us only how to fight but can say
nothing of how to awake. IMO Demiurg designed everything
so that we block each other with social norms, and morals.
So eventually also only outcasts would awake and the rest
of humanity would still stay deaf, dumb and blind. So for me
it is rather bleak and I doubt that any organisation can make
the difference... but on the other hand there's nothing bad in
trying, isn't it?

I think that the idea is pretty good. I have had some elements of "freedom fighters" in my campaigns, but nothing as well organized as this.

The organization would have plenty of very powerful enemies. But fortunately they can't agree on anything but the fact that they disagree.

Quote:

Originally posted by zara2stra 1) I only wanted to add my five cents from a standpoint of someone who also read the whole Invisibles series.... If you would want to describe the group in Kult terms they are neither awakened (still to weak), but also neither on any of the two paths presented in Kult rules. They are rather in between, and could pose as very advanced Kult PC's, IMO of course. 2) As for the gameplay being more lighthearted and action oriented, it's your game, your players and you can modify it anyway you want, but if you want to be true to the "official standpoint", organisations such as the Invisible College would be useless and rather misleading. 3) In Kult it isn't as easy as the bad guys are not physical nor ethereal beings whose ass can be kicked. Those are the principles and morals that enslave us and each human must deal with his own consciousness to free himself. So the IC would probably fight Lictors and others who try to keep us enslaved... so what? Even then the real wardens would be hidden in our own instincts. 4)And even if we could overthrow everyone who tries to block us, we would realise that our freedom fighters can teach us only how to fight but can say nothing of how to awake. 5) IMO Demiurg designed everything so that we block each other with social norms, and morals. So eventually also only outcasts would awake and the rest of humanity would still stay deaf, dumb and blind. So for me it is rather bleak and I doubt that any organisation can make the difference... but on the other hand there's nothing bad in trying, isn't it?

1) I wouldn´t say it is impossible to portray the Invisibles in Kult terms. Tom O´Bedlam is mad, Jack Frost (by the end of the series) is probably close to awakening via the path of light...none of them are awakened in Kult terms, of course. I suppose an Invisible who wanted to seriously work on his awakening would probably isolate himself from the order, while keeping in touch to give and receive aid when necessary, just as Tom O´Bedlam did.

2) I disagree. On to that in a moment.

3) True. But the Lictors and such reinforce the bars of the prison - the morals, the ethics, the sexuality, etc. Fighting the jailers would not be an end in itself, it would be means to an end. It would be fun for a playing session though!

4) Our freedom fighters could do three things. They could show us how to do it. They could show us why to do it. And they could create an environment where it could happen. Those are invaluable services. Of course, every human must walk the walk by himself...but the College could show him how to start, and why to start, and maybe give him some tips.

5) As I said, the Invisibles could show the why and at least the beginning of the how, as well as creating conditions for it to happen.

See, the Invisibles would work to further enlightenment and personal freedom in all levels. You read the series: you know the invisibles work to influence human culture in all its levels, to stimulate people to achieve higher and higher levels of freedom.

This sort of work can be boring (writing a best seller on self help with subtle clues to awakening), interesting (hacking a TV satellite computer to broadcast libertarian programs worldwide) or dangerous and glamurous (invading a high security military base to retrieve the AIDS antivirus, so that people may indulge in sex freely and by that path achieve enlightenment).

As I see it, there are ways to fight the good fight. Most of them are somewhat boring, but your players can concentrate on the dangerous side of the fight, and this can make a great campaign. So that is why I believe the IC fits perfectly into the Kult paradigm.

Wingchun, I just recently discovered The Invisibles after bouncing in Doom Patrol (one of the greatest comics of all time IMHO) and The Filth and I must say that the idea of adapting its premises to some Kult campaing crossed my mind every two or three pages.

Personally I think the Kult universe is complex and big enough to try everything we feel like (from Chtulhu like investigate-the-horror-and-get-mad adventures to metaphysical drama passing by musical bullet-ballet shows) and therefore I encourage you to keep with this idea in mind. Go for it. The idea of anarchist cells fighting agains the same fabric of "reality" is too good to abandon. May they be "right" or "wrong" playing an Invisible group (hey, they don´t even have to know they are invisibles, right?) can be so god damm funny.

So please, let me know any advances you make in the matter of adapting King Mob and co´s dynamics into kultesque terms. I think it´s really worth trying.

Hmm, sorry. I didn´t notice i was logged as my PbF character

You know how this memeplex thing toys with our personalities

Welcome to THE forum, by the way.

Quote:

So please, let me know any advances you make in the matter of adapting King Mob and co´s dynamics into kultesque terms. I think it´s really worth trying.

No advances made mate, real life has got in the way. I was thinking about creating the story of the Invisible College in Kult terms, with a real world, historical origin to it - maybe the order was founded by a human who Awakened during the Albigensian(sp) crusades, one of the perfecti? Not sure yet.

I definitely think the "physical" location of the College should be outside the illusion, and the dream worlds seem like an ideal location - cell members could be instructed in the art of dreaming, and be able to get in touch with the College in their sleep, maybe some really powerfull dreamers could even open portals to the IC to allow for a more permanent stay there...

Ideas, ideas. If anyone feels like developing this concept, by all means go ahead (and post the results here!).

Actually, I have a kind of similar concept going on in my game. Basically I adapted the general idea of Mage to Kult, because I had run Call of Cthulhu and my players had enjoyed it but I knew they wanted to have less of the sense of being helpless victims.

The Invisible College idea could certainly work. There are many factions of people out there who one way or another are approaching a grasp on 'reality'. Also, I think that when you said optimistic you really mean that unlike Call of Cthulhu your ultimate discovery is your own potential godhead, and that reality actually has been designed around you and your kind. Whereas Call of Cthulhu, by comparison, is totally dark. One of the most depressing truths in that game is that human beings are actually just the result of experiments done on ape creatures by a race of fungi, and their whole world is just a large lunchbox for creatures beyond the grasp of time and space.

Yup, that was my point. When it is all said and done, in Kult all the universe either was created to contain us, or was at one point our playground. Nothing too depressing about that.

Also, I should add that in adapting Mage I have the idea of a kind of de-centralized secret society of people who have some idea of what is going on, the idea that humanity is trapped and so on, but don't have all the facts at their fingertips. I've sort of changed the polarities so that the "Traditions" are the mages who were raised up from cults that seek enlightenment or like the Invisibles themselves had a series of confrontations with reality, while the Technocracy are the servants of the Archons really and the nephandi of course serve the Death Angels or the more macabre gods.

As for paradox, that is simply Reality and Illusion having a ricochet. I've found that making paradox really vicious my players' magic doesn't unbalance the game. On the contrary, the more normal the person the more difficult it is to do magic involving them unless that person might believe in some particular form of magic.

When I read the Invisible College I liked the basic idea of how the characters would interact a lot better than the Council of Nine concept in Mage the Ascension, where you are constantly wondering why these people don't get off their butts. In my game, true Magi are extremely rare; they are people on the path to Awakening and they are generally manipulated or hunted.

Armiger, just curious - what rules do you use, Mage or Kult? What rules do you use for magic, spheres or lores?

If you do use White Wolf rules, how do you measure mental balance?

This may seem totally weird, but I actually use both.

Basically, mental balance actually can apply if you use spheres and such. I simply correspond how powerful the mage is to mental balance, and yet how the mage proceeds goes on the same basis. I am a lot tougher on paradox as I said and so some kinds of powerful magic simply get you paradox regardless--same as how mental balance affects your physicality.

As for lores, I am very strict about the use of rituals or focuses, because without them the magic is unfocused and dangerous to use. Thus for instance one of my characters who has often done exorcisms actually uses an exorcisim ritual with readings from a book and ritual purifications and so on.

So it´s basically sphere magic, but if the person does not use rituals he´s screwed, right?

I still can´t understand the relationship between mental balance and magic though. I do know certain levels of mental balance allow you to do strange things, but how do you relate that to magic itself, which is supposed to be more formal, and at least somewhat costly?

It replaces the 'epiphany' idea which normally requires you to somehow roleplay magical revelation. I use it as a more formal system. (vis a vis mental balance)

Anyway, the lores are really just ways of understanding approaches to reality. When you are Awakaned, you don't need magic, because you know that you can manipulate reality. I have to admit that I found the matter a bit confusing myself, so in a sense I am also experimenting to see what works.

Quote:

Also, I think that when you said optimistic you really mean that unlike Call of Cthulhu your ultimate discovery is your own potential godhead, and that reality actually has been designed around you and your kind.

Just one point about the joy of being Awakened... Humanity were
once imprisoned and this happened back at the time when we were
gods, thus it can happen again. Apparently one entity, the Demiurge,
was able to administer the imprisonment and at least one other entity,
Minothorgon or She-Who-Waits-Below can destroy Awakened humans.

So although humans can reclaim their godhood, they are still not
allmighty. Awakened humans can be permanently destroyed, awakened
humans can be imprisoned again.

I agree that discovering that you are a God cannot really be said to
be a traumatic and depressing thing... but being a God might be just
as dangerous as a human. After all, humans are really dangerous beings:
We're about 50 times bigger than most any other animal, we live about
10 times longer than most creatures of our own size, we are practically
invulnerable to poisons and diceases, and we can destroy basically
anything. The only reason to why we don't feel like super-powerful
deites is because we compare us with ourselves... and the few creatures
that just happen to be bigger than us.

My favourite theory about the imprisonment is that a human (one of us)
imprisoned the whole of humanity because of greed. You don't need to
buy this idea, but perhaps the line "you will never be free" has to do
with the fact that even if humanity were to awaken "en masse", we'd
still be imprisoned by all those other monsters that humanity is
composed of.

I agree with Tintomara. What I see as the true horror of Kult doesn't come from any of the supernatural entities. The whole game centers around humans, and it is from these the horror comes from. Whatever our prison guards might do to keep us in the dark, what we humans do to each other are far, far worse. And just think of what we'd do to each other if we had even more power. In my Kult world, most Awakened are perverted and crazy, seen from a non-awakened perspective. Also, my two favourite ideas about the imprisonment of humankind are the greed theory of Tintomara, and the idea of humankind having been imprisoned because they were "evil" (that is, they were imprisoned because they were actually a threat to the balance of the true reality, and that mass awakening could in fact end up with the destruction of the awakeneds layer of reality).

Interesting theories...the idea that humankind was "evil" when it was awakened has lots of dramatic potential. The rulesbook does describe the azghouls as basicaly inoffensive creatures who were subjected to much evil and abuse at our hands, and the idea that we are imprisoned for the good of the universe is interesting indeed.

But it need not be the sole approach to the dilemma of awakening.

If we work on the premises of the Invisibles series, humanity is basically on a larval stage, and it will (if things work out alright, of course) leave this planet for an evolutionary leap into other dimensions.

Why not work based on those premises? Maybe we were indeed evil, and maybe our imprisonment was a "good" thing, but perhaps our awakening could be just the first step towards real evolution; the magic section of the rulesbook described the Lore of Reality (anyone has any clue on how it is supposed to work?) as a discipline which could allow humans (both awakened humans and EXTREMELY powerfull un awakened magicians) to access realms and realities which were not originally inhabited by mankind.

What if that is our "manifest destiny", so to speak? Resume our godhood and boldly go where no demigod has threaded before? Sounds like a good enough long term goal to me.

I am not telling anyone how to run their campaigns here, of course. But it does seem like you guys are trying very hard to see the bad, dangerous, dark side of mankind and reality - and the Kultiverse is not NECESSARILY that bleak.

I mean, even if we, in our godhood, are not omnipotent, and can be imprisoned by a god bigger than us which right now is in exile/disappeared/MIA; and even if in the whole known universe there are a couple of creatures that can actually destroy us for real, but which are actually too inert to really hunt us and will not bother us if we don´t bother them...well, the perspectives do not sound so bad for us, I would say!

I also like the idea of awakened humans being perceived as crazy or perverted by mere mortals...but I do think a godlike being who realizes he belongs to a race of imprisoned gods would have better things to do with his time than play with an antfarm. Personally, in my campaign I would use awakened humans in one of three roles:

1) Helpful: this entity desires to restore humanity (or at least some selected few) to its former glory. Maybe this stems from a desire of companionship, maybe it needs help in some project or other involving forces and realities unawakened humans cannot hope to understand (up to and including breeding other awakened humans...?).

This entity will indeed appear before ordinary humans, and will try to help them, but I don´t think it would give lectures on awakening, simply because that would not work. It would more than likely act like a secret patron of its chosen protegées, appearing in different times and places in disguises, to guide them and to nudge them in the right direction.

Its actual purpose should not, of course, be revealed to the players - some dramatic doubt is still a need in any good roleplaying game, and a powerfull patron such as this would take away much of the uncertainty! But such an entity would be a great founder and protector to the Invisible College.

Also, an awakened human is not omniscient or omnipotent. It could still use some help in certain projects, such as, say, researching the actual origin of mankind and the demiurge.

2) Opposed to the the awakening: there are many reasons for this. Selfishness, or maybe a desire to do the right thing, supposing the entity in question found out that we were imprisoned for a damn good reason!

Again, the entity should work behind the scenes, if only because no player character (or group of PCs) would ever stand a chance against such an entity. One interesting point is that this entity, if it works against the awakening for moral reasons or for greater reasons (e.g. the maintenance of the universe) could, in theory, be convinced to help a select human to awaken, once it is properly convinced that the individual in question will not precipitate armageddon or something. It could always use some help (although an eternity as a jailkeeper of your own kind sounds a bit depressing as a long term goal, at least to me).

3) Indifferent to the awakening: its every god for himself. Maybe this entity is working on some project, maybe it is an explorer of realities and dimensions. It will not go out of its way to help or hinder. On the other hand, this entity could be more actively involved in the campaign if it is actually researching the past of mankind - even awakened humans are not omniscient, as Tintomara said.

In this case, it could use PCs as agents, to gather information on the technology and the past deeds of mankind, going into areas of the Labyrinth or Metropolis where even a deity will not go - after all, it can still be imprisoned or permanently destroyed.

Quote:

If we work on the premises of the Invisibles series, humanity is basically on a larval stage, and it will (if things work out alright, of course) leave this planet for an evolutionary leap into other dimensions.

Why do everybody assume that evolution will make things better? Evolution could just as well take us the other way around, turning humanity into cute fluffy worms with only enough brain activity to copulate.

Quote:

But it does seem like you guys are trying very hard to see the bad, dangerous, dark side of mankind and reality - and the Kultiverse is not NECESSARILY that bleak.

Not if you focus upon the light awakening, no. The only problem is that you might turn the story a bit too much into a superhero contest if you do...
Humanity in Kult is either "evil" or ignorant. A successful group of Invincibles would much probably be regarded as terrorists by all normal people. In Kult, salvation is usually something you achieve by... "unethical" acts, and those who don't participiate in such acts are enemies to the Awakening. It makes Awakening an interesting ethical dilemma, doesn't it?

I would portrait an Awakened either as an "antedeluvian" in WoD (working to gain political power in the background), or as some kind of sad angelic-looking creature (with no hope of ever returning humanity to its former "glory"). They are supposed to move outside time and space, so I think a "flowing" unearthly-alien physical behaviour would be nice. Not to mention an unearthly mind... something you cannot fully trust or understand.

Quote:

This entity will indeed appear before ordinary humans, and will try to help them, but I don´t think it would give lectures on awakening, simply because that would not work. It would more than likely act like a secret patron of its chosen protegées, appearing in different times and places in disguises, to guide them and to nudge them in the right direction.

I like to think most, if not all, real power inside the kultiverse is based
upon political power. Mere physical or mental attributes cannot outweight
the power of being able to decide over what propaganda TV will be sending
this week. This would be (I think) a quite decent explanation to why the
Illusion hasn't been overthrown by the Awakened so far. They may be equals
to Astaroth in physical power , but they lack his political power. Political
power is hard to get when those who allready got the power is fighting
you... so I'd suggest that the Awakened is not primarily interested in
making other humans Awaken. Those who want to make a difference and not just
run and hide, would much probably be trying to build a political power-base
using "normal humans" as pawns. They could be "political wannabes" on a
strict collision course with the mainstream politics (because our Jailors,
and therefore our moral standards, would never allow any organisation driven
by Awakened to gain power whithout a serious fight). Examples could be
leaders of suicide sects, terrorist organisations, "flower-power" religions
and perhaps one or two environmental organisations on a quest to save the
jellyfish. The 3'rd corebook appears to suggest that some vodoo spirits are
Awakened or near-awakened humans.

What about first presenting the "Invisibles" as a terrorist network, hunted by the authorities and condemned by media. When they make a successful attack against one of Astaroths training camps for his Legions (of undead boy-soliders), media will show an unprovoked attack against a kindergarten. They take control over a tower which in Reality is a mind-controlling device that has been holding a whole city capture with its devilish brainwashing rays... they try to free its victims, perhaps even sending an image of the Truth to the world... but in the Illusion, normal people will instead see a hostage situation in a news-channel building.

I think that is a very intriguing idea. It is really important to keep the human element going, and it is surprisingly easy to keep things down to Earth by that means.

One of my favourite things in horror movies is that same human element. Weird monsters and effects are not so chilling or intriguing as the sense of mystery and suspense, and I have found you can make magic a part of this.

The very fact that the cults overwhelmingly outnumber the Awakened or the near Awakened makes it tricky as well.

Quote:

1) Why do everybody assume that evolution will make things better? Evolution could just as well take us the other way around, turning humanity into cute fluffy worms with only enough brain activity to copulate. 2) Not if you focus upon the light awakening, no. The only problem is that you might turn the story a bit too much into a superhero contest if you do... 3) Humanity in Kult is either "evil" or ignorant. 4) A successful group of Invincibles would much probably be regarded as terrorists by all normal people. In Kult, salvation is usually something you achieve by... "unethical" acts, and those who don't participiate in such acts are enemies to the Awakening. It makes Awakening an interesting ethical dilemma, doesn't it? 5) I would portrait an Awakened either as an "antedeluvian" in WoD (working to gain political power in the background), or as some kind of sad angelic-looking creature (with no hope of ever returning humanity to its former "glory"). They are supposed to move outside time and space, so I think a "flowing" unearthly-alien physical behaviour would be nice. Not to mention an unearthly mind... something you cannot fully trust or understand. 6) I like to think most, if not all, real power inside the kultiverse is based upon political power. 7) Those who want to make a difference and not just run and hide, would much probably be trying to build a political power-base using "normal humans" as pawns. 8) What about first presenting the "Invisibles" as a terrorist network, hunted by the authorities and condemned by media.

1) You are too much of a pessimist. Or it could turn us into, Gods...

2) Or a memorable campaign where our heroes have short but exciting lives...!

3) In YOUR campaigns maybe. I am pretty sure the corebook doesn´t have any clauses forcing you to interpret the scenario that way.

4) Precisely my point. Things would be interesting. And moral dilemmas would be one of the last concerns of our freedom fighters...

5) Go and read the Invisibles now. The Arlequinade would be a perfect Awakened patron of the Invisible College (those who read the entire series know what I mean here). Mysterious, dangerous, incomprehensible...and eventually helpful.

6) I, on the other hand, prefer to consider that power lies within oneself (and the premises of Kult support this view, in my opinion). Any way it all depends on your goals.

7) Or a terrorist organization...

8) Hey, that was always the idea.

Quote:

You are too much of a pessimist. Or it could turn us into, Gods...

Possibly... but have you considered how much fun a "cute fluffy worms with only enough brain activity to copulate" could have?

Quote:

I, on the other hand, prefer to consider that power lies within oneself (and the premises of Kult support this view, in my opinion). Any way it all depends on your goals.

So political power is of "less importance" in your settings? Or are you sugessting that political power is merely a manifestation of ones inner powers?